Jigsaw CEO Defends His Company

Jigsaw—a company that built its business by having members upload and clean others’ contact information in its marketing database—put out a press release last week touting its new “Email Learning Center,” a repository of Can-Spam-compliance and e-mail-best-practices white papers and Webinars, among other things.

Included in the release announcing the learning center was the following eye-popping sentence: “Email prospecting to non-opt-in emails generates many opportunities.”

Prospecting to non-opt-in e-mails generates many opportunities? Uh, yeah, I thought as I read the release.

Prospecting to non-opt-in e-mails generates many opportunities to get your servers blocked by ISPs that have determined you’re a spammer.

I called Jigsaw CEO Jim Fowler and asked him to explain his company’s spam policy and how it fits within industry best practices.

The following is an edited transcript of the interview:

Magilla Marketing: As I was looking for things to cover last week, I ran across your release and one line jumped out at me and that was: There are opportunities in opt-out prospecting e-mail. And that just struck me as antithetical to what the industry has been preaching for the last 10 years. Isn’t it?

Jim Fowler: I don’t think it said “opportunities in opt out.” I think it said “opportunities in non-opt-in.” There are two very different concepts there. It’s possible we may disagree, but I want to make sure we disagree on the same set of facts.

Magilla: OK. Also, I think I should clarify something. I don’t moralize on the concept of spam. In fact, I used to be a direct marketer. I think like a direct marketer. I defend marketers. I was also the guy who argued against double opt in as unnecessary, though I have since change my stand on that topic.

But then along came the “report spam” button, and to me that was a game changer. I don’t tell people: “Don’t spam because you’re evil if you do it.” I tell them: “Don’t spam because you’re going to get reported and if you get enough of those reports [spam complaints] you’re going to get your mail blocked and be unable to reach even the people who want to hear from you.”

So understand, this is not a moral argument I’m making. It’s a practical argument. And it looks to me like your service is a prime opportunity to get people hitting the “report spam” button.

Fowler: Let’s back up. The first answer is “no.” But let’s back up so we can be really clear. When I looked at your question [I submitted a few to his PR rep before this interview so he could prepare] I was a little bit confused. Both I and my COO came from Digital Impact. We came from the e-mail marketing game and Can Spam is really clear in that you don’t have to be opt-in in order to send someone e-mails. There are three very clear rules about sending e-mail and they are: they have to know who it’s from, you can’t misrepresent what it is your selling and you have to give them a way to opt out.

When someone uses Jigsaw, they have to comply with all federal, state, international—any sort of law that may apply. The analogy I would use is people do bad things on eBay, which is a platform. And unfortunately, I would suggest there are people who do bad things on Jigsaw in violation of the law. Anytime we find someone doing that, we immediately block them and do everything appropriate to stop them.

Magilla: I never had any doubt that you were completely within the law. [But] complying with the law is not going to get your mail delivered. Complying with the law is not going to stop Yahoo or AOL from blocking your mail because you’ve been identified as a spammer. You can be within the law and be a spammer and if the ISPs identify you as a spammer they’re going to block you.

Fowler: One of the things that we’ve learned is that everyone has their own definition of spam. When we were at Digital Impact, I believe we had 22 active definitions of spam.

Magilla: Well I’ve got one. It’s unsolicited bulk commercial e-mail. That’s the definition. Everyone who has a definition different than that is wrong.

Fowler: Right. I think we get into the legal versus moral here.

Magilla: I said at the outset, it’s not a moral argument. It’s a practical argument. I’m not telling you you’re bad. I’m telling you the ISPs have these certain metrics they use to determine whether or not to accept incoming mail and if you trip those metrics, you’re going to get blocked.

Fowler: We agree. But Jigsaw doesn’t deliver the mail.

Magilla: I know that, but you supply the addresses that are going to get me blocked.

Fowler: I’m not arguing that. If someone comes into Jigsaw and gets data and does stupid things, they will get what they deserve. We agree completely on that. One thing you may not be aware of is that there is no non-business information on Jigsaw of any kind, including any AOL, Hotmail or Gmail addresses. It has to be an address associated with a Web site that does business on the Internet.

Now, there are a lot of Fortune 1,000 companies that have e-mail systems that operate very much like a mini Google or Yahoo. So the same problems exist. But my point is we agree. That’s why we put the learning center out there. We’re saying: “Guys, here’s the law. You have to conform to the law. And here are best practices. Because if you do stupid things, you’re going to get blocked so you need to do this thing right. So we absolutely agree.

Magilla: Well, no we don’t. If you mail to people who haven’t given permission, you’re spamming. By definition, me going into Jigsaw, downloading a list and e-mailing people is not a best practice.

Fowler: I’m not arguing with that point either. With Jigsaw, we do one-to-one. Our sales guys will go out and mail individuals. All I’m saying is whether it’s best practice or not, it is legal to do.